Deputies Graduating with Blue Belts in Jiu Jitsu.

This week we talk with Rob and Gabriel of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Department Academy. We discuss their defensive tactics program and how their Deputies graduate with Blue belts in Jiu Jitsu. 

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Transcript

welcome to force multiplier for a long course, where we discuss factors that give officers the ability to accomplish greater fees than they will.

all right. Welcome to force multiplier, where we are going to talk about things that enhance a police officer's ability to accomplish greater feats than they would without it.  Today we have Rob Scarborough, burrow and Gabriel Rose.  Rob  give a little bit    introduction  17 years law enforcement experience  for the past five years, is it you've been a Leo instructor.

 And you are a black belt  that has been trained for about 11 years and did Jitsu. All right. And then we have Gabriel  20 years law enforcement  17 years in the military reserves. Is that correct? That's correct. Awesome.  We have 15 years of military or as a Leo instructor  six of those being a firearms instructor  five years as the lead DT instructor.

 And you sir are a brown belt in jujitsu with about 13 years of experience.

Right. Awesome.   Rob, if you don't mind me asking  you mentioned a little bit about your digital experience  and what brought you up to the black belt level, kind of your training and train under?   I mainly started training jujitsu just to be a better cop. Right. I didn't care about when I started, I didn't know the belts.

I didn't grow up doing martial arts or anything like that.  I actually lost my first fight on the street.  Right after that, our department put out like an advanced groundfighting course  that Gabriel and them did after  they brought hinder Gracie out here for like the very early  combatives programs.

 I took that course and then started training with them regularly. At the time we could train with  here or the academy or with Louise Clarissa has gym, which is a, we wanted to,  I did a lot of training early on. I was working a patrol schedule. My wife was working.  When I was off, I was training pretty much.

And  really all of that, just, just to be a better policeman, because I knew it would be safer for me, safer for my family and safer for the people I work around if I knew how to fight. Cause frankly, like I said, I didn't grow up doing martial arts,  I need to learn how to fight.  That's how I started training jujitsu.

And like I said, did a lot of like four or five days a week.  You mentioned at the beginning  as a police officer, you got into an altercation  where  the outcome probably wasn't what I think, what you desire for  did that kind of spark your, your drive to train?  And if so  from what you recall of that incident, could you share a little bit about that?

Well, I mean, it was just  just really, it was really  A silly thing, call for a suspicious person. I was in an apartment complex. We had a little bit of weed on him.  You know, some people are compliant right up until they're not.  He ran accreditation twice. The taser didn't work where I missed with the taser and  ended up getting with a  like a scuffle with him as he was trying to get away.

I couldn't control him on the ground. And he got up, got away from me and threw a hole in the fence that I was too fat to fit through at the time.   After that I was like, I, I.  As I need, I need better training. I didn't get enough.  That's when I started training. And  Gabriel, if you don't mind  what kind of got you into  the jujitsu and, and then into the defensive tactics realm  for law enforcement?

Yes.   I'd always kind of train martial arts. Even starting out as a child, as TaeKwonDo and then some traditional boxing and things like that. And  myself and two other guys  brought Louis sane and it's a BJJ around here. You know, if there, we had a couple purple belts and they were in, in the city of Jacksonville in 2008 and they were in 2008 and purple belt was the creme room for the most part, unless you're bringing somebody in there's very few black belts around at that time.

And  I took somebody to jail and as I was leaving the jail, I saw a  a sign outside of our police station that said Brazilian jujitsu with a number.  I called it and it ended up being Louise Pella Horace. At that time he had just moved down or just a few, you know, a little that had just moved down from Virginia, the Carolinas, I want it, maybe it was Virginia.

And   we called him up and myself, Tony Batos and Jason Miller.  Who all were involved in training here at the Jacksonville Sheriff's office police academy. We started talking to him and at the time we had to sign a $150 contract, $150 a month. And  he was Luis was teaching out of a, like a boxing gym.

Well, then we kind of forged this relationship. And then we asked if he would come to our academy and train and we would bring other officers. So, you know, joke about it now because in 2008, 2009, when we kicked this thing off, it'd be the same 5, 6, 7 guys training. We, we do it every Tuesday and Thursday  on Tuesdays and Thursdays during a lunch break.

That's what we did.  Well now it's grown. I think our last class we had upwards of 30 officers, almost 40. So, and now obviously we run our own association because we have guys like Robert and Tony and Joe, and quite a few black belts on that. We now run the association, but that's, that's kinda where it started.

 As far as like a self-defense art, I think there's nothing better than resilience jujitsu. And we, at that time, Luis play Horace was a, was a sixth degree black.  Which again was unheard of, you know, especially around here. And then now he's an eighth degree red and white belt and we've all grown up under him.

So it's a, it's just kinda been a long ride.  But  but, but  but a valuable ride. Absolutely. Oh, that's awesome. I'm very, very familiar with  who Louis is    trained under some people who also trained under him. So I'm very, well-respected in the juicy community.  So let's talk a little bit about  that you guys have created a hot topic  with, with your program  with, with the post you guys made  a little while ago.

 I just, the jujitsu community police officers, I mean, everybody just  it just blew up.  And  you guys created a defensive tactics program there. Your police came.  That  from my understanding  police officers, as they went through this academy, they were immersed in, in this defensive tactics training.

 And there was a process that they had to go through. And ultimately you guys have police officers that graduated your academy with a blue belt in.  Could you explain a little bit kind of about that program  how it worked  how you guys came to that decision.  You guys were gonna  you know, test out and award and  your, your program that you guys had designed there.

So I'm thinking like all good decisions are good choices. They're made over bourbon and cigars

after running a few classes here at the academy, I've figured out that  Program. I think we could give them more. There's a lot of times people come in here fit and they leave fit. If they come in here, not enjoying the workout, they leave not enjoying the workout. So I figured, well, let me give them some more practical application with their PT.

So in 2018, I ran a class where I did most of their PT was a quick workout. And then. Of tactics style training. So it was kind of the first class we tried that on. And then from that Gabriel and I were sitting together talking again, bourbon and cigars and said, Hey, you know, with the level of training we all have, do you think it'd be possible to take a class, run it through the night, nine month academy and get them to a blue belt level before they graduate.

And we had several conversations on that.  Then we had a change in our chain of command. We took it to our new Sergeant who is a Tony bachelors, who was kind of the  really the guy who helped start all of this. One of the three that started the training here at the Sheriff's office. And so he became our training Sergeant.

We took that idea to him and about the same time he ran into the sheriff downtown and the sheriff had just listened to Jocko Willink on the Joe Rogan pocket. Where they were talking about all the policemen should be purple belts. So sheriff comes to our training. Sergeant says, Hey, I want the whole department to be purple belts, which of course we laughed at.

We got 1700, almost 1800 sworn policemen on the department to give them all the purple belts is just  silly, but he told him, Hey, this is what the guys have been talking about and thinking about, and after telling him what we were already talking about, the sheriff. Bought on and said, Hey, whatever you guys need to make this happen, make it happen across the board.

So now from that, we wanted to do one class kind of just to see how it would work. And the sheriff said, no, no, no, come up with a program and give it to the next, you know, all the recruit classes from here on out. So we've got that one class that graduated. We've got another class that  It's about three quarters of the way through, and then another class that's that's in the beginning of it.

So we've done it. We've got, it's a work in progress. We've got three classes, one that's graduated and another, another two in progress. Now that's kind of where the whole thing started. So the big, so the big question, right for everybody has, how did you guys do this? In nine months where you guys can test people out and they get their, their blue belt.

Can you kind of describe the, the immersion and the training that you guys go through throughout it's a nine month academy, correct? Yes. So I'll  I'll, I'll start and then I'll let, I'll let Rob take over. So one of the things that I know we talked about  Chad Lyman earlier, and he kind of prefaced a lot of our work cause I've been in Robin, I've been in contact with Chad for, for quite some time.

So we're, we're different than any other academy around is we w when I say we own our recruits, they're hired by the Jacksonville Sheriff's office. So in our sheriff, who is completely bought onto our program really allows us to guide them and into a direction that we want. So, yes, we, the department of law enforcement FTL, we, we stick to their curriculum, but we have a lot of leeway and we can always add stuff.

So, I mean, the fact that our sheriff let's. This whole program. They come in a week early and we run them through like a GST program. So before they do anything law enforcement, our sheriff allows them, pays them in the first week of their training is to come in and, and they're running, they're doing ground fighting.

So right off the right at the beginning of the training, that's already 32 hours of Brazilian jujitsu training, just learning fundamentals, learning positions, you know, base, standing base, things like that. So that's the way their training starts. And then every day. For not that nine month period, they're, they're getting some sort of combative training, whether it's the jujitsu, whether it's boxing, whether it's moody tie wrestling, take down.

So  you know, w w w again, where we're different is not only we own the recruits, but we're an agency with a full-time training staff that has three black belts on staff. Two of them, one of them being robbed. The other being Tony bachelors, who are under Luis Pella, Horace. And we've got another guy, Gary Cobb, who's a black belt under Chris Hauter.

 So not all agencies have the resources that we do and that's just assigned to the training academy.  So it, it, it really, it, it bodes well for us that yes, we have the resources and two we're supported from these sheriff to run this type of training program. So when you hear nine months on the surface, That's that doesn't count the 80 hours of the mandatory defensive tactics training.

I mean, there's 32 hours right off the beginning. And then, you know, we could speak to our last recruit class, the recruit class that got awarded their blue belts. There would be days where they chose to stay later. I mean, it's very, you could count on your hands and have fingers left over how many times it was actually an hour more than more so than not.

It was an hour and a half or two hours were in there on the mat. And it's, you know, we kind of, we don't like training. I don't like training for time. We like to train to a point of diminishing returns. You know, it's there smoked. I mean, we actually, that was one of the  the changes we did on the, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, they had their  their, like their PT, proper sections, like their, their physical training with our training coordinator or physical training coordinator will at first.

They did the physical training with that gentlemen first. And then they would come in with Rob and I and a few others and do their, their  Brazilian jujitsu training. Well, then what we found was is by the time they were done doing their physical training, they were completely exhausted. And we weren't getting the returns that we really wanted.

I mean, they were just mentally destroyed, fatigued, physically destroyed, physically fatigued.  So we went to him and said, Hey, we're going to switch it. We're going to have the Brazilians. You did two training first, and then you can get them for their, their, their PT proper. And then I think that change alone  we saw  a growth there and  you know, and it was always.

We always got with the recruits and it was very open, you know, how do we like this? And it's like, they were our beta groups. So we're, and we're still, we're still growing forward. I mean   from it, and, and Rob's done a great job with the curriculum and making the modifications. And we've got some other guys who are just very, very talented and  you know, I mean, being involved in martial arts, you know, we always say, check your, and get the door, but that very rarely happens.

The far training cadre.  We really, I mean, it's, there's no egos, you know, and we're all about improving because we realize it's about something bigger than us. And  we're just trying to put the best product out there. And, and, you know, it's, you know, getting the love that we got on the pot or the  the Instagram post and then the hate, and one of the things that I've said for years, and these guys have heard me say it, the two things that police hate the most are the way it is now and change.

You know, so you're going to get people complaining about police can't control, but now we've developed a program. That's all we're teaching and people are going to complain about that. You know what, and I just, I feel like, Hey. We we've got a good thing. We're not going to let our detractors, you know, our, our haters detract from our program because there's nobody else doing it.

So that's kind of our progression. And I know Rob can expound upon that much more as far as the training goes, but  but that's kinda how it started. Awesome. Hey Rob, so something me and you had talked about  Before is    and I think this is a good segue into talking about your program is we'd had a conversation and I'd mentioned about  you know, all these, these gyms out here that are trying to make police officers into jujitsu practitioners  where we need to make jiu-jitsu work for police officers.

 And you know, it seems like, kind of, that's what you guys, the direction you guys want went is how do we make jiu-jitsu work for police officers  and other martial arts. Cause you guys are using other martial arts in there too.  To keep them safe, keep us  suspect safe. And at the end of the day, minimize risk and injury to both police officer and two subject.

 So can you speak a little bit on your guys' training and how you guys adopted and modified jujitsu to work for law enforcement? So I'll say, and one things I say a lot is I really don't care at all for points. Like I don't care about sports. I've done a couple of competitions and I enjoyed the competitions.

I'm glad I did it. It was a great experience. We've had some of our guys want to do some competitions and, and  you know, let them go for it.  But jujitsu in real life for a police officer should be different. I shouldn't be worried about a clock. I shouldn't be worried about transitions to get more points.

 I should be able to stay relaxed and in control without all that stuff hanging over my head. So we very much stayed away from. The competition mindset, where I got to do this, hold it for three seconds to get these points and then transition to get more points. And, you know, I got to keep moving  to keep building up the points or I got to keep moving.

Cause I got a time clock on my back. So to make juicy work for police, like for the most part. And  Chad even mentioned it in the other podcast.  And so one-on-one fight in time is on our side. So very, we focus very much on the control aspect of jujitsu.  And waiting for that backup to get there.

And then we progressed from there even to teaching, you know, multiple hours officer techniques, to officer techniques, to officer control and handcuffing. Whereas, you know, if you go to, and again, me personally, this is just my personal opinion.  Cause I, I love the sports aspect of the G2 and we do do some of our classes or our sports to do two classes on Tuesdays.

And  I just don't have any. Desire to worry about points like jiu-jitsu for me is how do I be a better policeman? How do I better control somebody on the street? How do I keep Atlanta and Kenosha from happening here in Jackson? We can control somebody and stop stuff like that from happening. That's how we make juicy work for police officers instead of trying to take a bunch of police officers and turn them into, you know, competition blue belts or, or higher.

Does that make sense? So I, I totally understand. I totally agree with you.  I am  you know, as we talked about, you know, I am GGT practitioner and I'm very much on the self-defense. Because that's, what's going to matter at  in, in a real world scenario  you know, versus trying to do all these techniques that could put you in more danger.

So, yeah, I'm right with you on that. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy the sports side.  But you know, self-defense is where it's at for me  in, in terms of the training.  So what. Have you guys found  through confidence of police officers that are training with you guys  and their ability to, to handle stressful situations

are Tuesdays and Thursday classes. And we started a Wednesday fundamentals class had started growing as we push, you know, further training, further training to the recruits before we even started. Again, one of the goals of this program was. Officers would come back and train more.  But the more we pushed it, our cost is in the officers that had graduated recently before going through this program were already coming back and telling us, Hey, the training I'm doing on Tuesdays and Thursdays is really helping  you know, telling us stories where, Hey, this could have been a lethal force encounter.

And because I was so calming in control when this guy was. Even trying to take my life. It didn't have to re to raise to the level of lethal force and I was able to control him and take him into custody.  We had another officer who  not long on the street, had a, had a mentally ill person, attacker.

And again, that's the difference between a fight and a struggle. Most of us, we call the struggles to just take somebody into custody, to fight, but very often, or not very often, do we have somebody turn around and actually try to fight us?  Well she had a mentally ill person turn around and actually try to fight it.

And laying in the hospital after that    incident, she credits jujitsu for saving her life. Like the training I did on Tuesdays and Thursdays, if I hadn't had that, he probably would've killed me. So those are the kinds of stuff we were hearing from officers just doing like our regular Tuesdays and Thursdays class.

So, you know, with those benefits just twice a week, like why not give them more in the academy, hopefully encourage them to come back. No, the cost just graduated. So they're in, they're in field training now.  They've had like, I think two work cycles of field training. So we haven't heard much from them yet, or we don't have any numbers to see  the big change to the actual program.

But even before we started this program, those are the kinds of stories we were hearing from the officers. Just the twice a week that we do that we offer. So your guys' training, you sent me a little    schedule  kind of here.  How many  do you guys have a set curriculum or a set amount of lessons that they have to go through?

 As they're going through the camp.  Yes. And actually  I have a copy of it somewhere.  So that's what, one of the things we did actually, that's the fundamentals ones, but one of the things we sat down and did when  when we started this program was, Hey, let's actually write out a curriculum that way one, we can say, if something comes up later, if something comes up in court, if whatever, Hey, this is, this is our curriculum.

This is what we taught. This is why.  So Gary Cobb sat down and wrote  several hundred pages of curriculum for the boxing, kickboxing, the take down, take down the fence and wrestling. And then I also sat down and wrote the curriculum for the    two.  And the ground fighting aspect of it so that we have an, like, we have  a book and a manual that we give to the recruits that has the lesson.

We have a set number of lessons, and again, that's changed the number of lessons we have has changed  over the classes. It's a work in progress.  So I think we started with 40 some odd jujitsu lessons and just trimming stuff where, Hey, I think this will be more beneficial or we can combine these two things.

 I think we've come down to  About 30 jujitsu lessons with the goal and those 30 lessons to be, to get through them two, even three times throughout the academy.  And then test on those. So we have a set curriculum everything's in writing so that if something comes up later or it's challenged in court, or there's a use of force incident where, Hey, you know, what were you teaching?

Like? This is the curriculum that we do. Awesome. And now under the, to the big, big topic, right. Everybody is the question is how do we get to this, to this blue belt point?  Can you talk a little bit about your testing  and kind of what that looks like and  did everybody pass your test or was this a, Hey, you know, sorry, you didn't make it.

You'd go out and train some more and come back and retest and we'll reevaluate. So that just real quick, cause you brought it up.  No, not everybody. And that wasn't a requirement to pass the academy. So those that didn't get still graduated the academy.  But even the ones that didn't get blue belts, they still trained for nine months.

So training for nine months, you're not going to leave here as a zero Stripe white.  So not everybody got a trophy, but everybody got a belt.  And we, so those who did after the test, we said, Hey, you know, this guy is probably at a two Stripe white belt level. This one's three, you know, four, Hey, you got four stripes on a white belt.

Come back on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Wednesdays and train with us. And you're that close to getting your blue belt and you can test it. So everybody got a belt, just the ones who didn't get a blue belt, got a white belt with, you know, two, three or four stripes on it, just, you know, based on the level they were at during the test.

So that kind of answers a little bit to the test.  W what you guys can share of kind of, how did that test look like? How long was it?  You know, what did the police officers have to go through and encounter during that test? So the test we did a three-part test. We brought a squad in at a time. So again, we're doing a argument, we're doing something that's never been done before.

Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Most, most schools like if you, if you're testing for your blue belt, you go in front of your truck, do you have a training partner? And it's like a one-on-one kind of test. So we're, we're all trying to figure out, Hey, how do we do this? How do we keep it valid?  So we did a three-part test.

There was  Three white belts, a brown belt and a purple belt instructor that are all part of the program in there observing the test.  The first part of the test was, was technique. We said, Hey, show us this flow. This technique into this technique, into this technique, just kind of put it together as a flow with an ending point that's law enforcement related.

 And then after we put the squads through that observing, taking notes, we put a MMA gloves on and we said, Hey, now at about 50%. We want to see you and your partner spar with strikes and everything else involved. Start on your feet. You want to see a takedown. I want to see the clench. I want to see the takedown and I want to see how this fight goes to the ground and on the ground with the strikes involved at about 50%.

So that was the first two parts of the test where we brought in a few of the time. And took notes from that off the notes we took, we bought the whole class in for like a, a, I guess you'd call it like an open map in that. Yeah. Yeah. So it was an open mat with a, like, this is jujitsu sparring match. So we're starting on the ground now.

I won't call it sports jujitsu, but it's more kind of like what you see in your regular academy. We start on the ground. We walk around as instructors, we walked around and observed. Then we also worked in enrolled with them specifically, the ones we took notes on  during the first two parts, we said, Hey, let's I think most of those rolled with every instructor  the ones that we noticed issues on the first two parks  to finish that test and then  During that sparring match, we walked around and watched.

So we did three minute rounds and just kept doing rounds for the rest of the afternoon, as we worked in and watched how they work, how they rolled.  So we, later, later in the program, we do integrate the full sparring. They don't start that early on, but eventually we integrate sparring into their approach.

 So that was the test three parts technique than an image. They may like 50% sparring match. And then with the whole class, and they were kind of a full jujitsu sparring with us around  working in and observing and, and if I'm, if I can add to it, so. After the first two parts of the test were completed, the instructors that were in there, it was three black belt to you, Gary, Tony, me, I'm a brown belt, Doug and Brian who's a blue belt was a blue belt.

So that was our, our, our, our cadre of instructors that was, that were doing the evaluation. We all had no pads in there and we're calling out the techniques and the flows where we wanted them to go. When those first two parts were done, the instructors got together. Compared notes. So these are the ones that were, these are the eight or 10 that we were concerned with.

So when we brought the entire class back into our large gym, for that, that open mat session, if you will  we knew who to focus on. If we weren't specifically one of us wasn't rolling with them. At that time, somebody was always at least observing one of the groups that were  that we had questions about.

And the reason that we started them on the ground as opposed to coming from a take-down is because we had 40 people in the jail.  We have a big gym, but again, anytime you have, you know, 40 bodies, 20 pairs going for, you know, we also have to worry about injury and in the safety we have our recruits and our students as well.

So that was main reason from starting from a 50, 50 position from a kneeling position  into a, into a, a take down. So that's kind of the way that went there. And, and I mean, I think. It was, it was proven.  And like Rob said, you know, you obviously being a jujitsu practitioner as well.  You know, I started before Robin Robins, a black belt and I'm not, you know, life happened and you know what I mean?

I went to the gun, right.

I love my journey.  But, but I think everybody who's ever trained you Jitsu at your, your standard gym. What was your retention rate for that first two years? You know, we do a technique. I'm like, Hey, do you remember that thing that we did? And no, because you learned four things that day and you're, you're drinking through a fire hose and you're not going to do that again for another two years.

So the retention value that we have for our guys in nine months, because we have a set curriculum and like Rob said, we're going through that set curriculum three times. You know? So seeing somebody who's. Was very apprehensive when we paid, this is your beta group, this is what you're doing. Some of the  more passive individuals  to see their growth or that nine month period.

I mean, one female and we'll leave her nameless, went from being very apprehensive, kind of quiet to hosting UFC fights at our house. Like, I mean, really, it gives me chills to this day because I remember her first submission and it was like the crowning achievement of her life. And you know, what. Every that she's been off since she started here, field training, not only has she been here to train, she's bought squad members from other squads, you know what I mean?

And that was our goal because you know, if you'd like to call for hunt or fish prior to become a cop on your days off, that's what you're going to do because you have never invested. Your time into it. You know, you're not going to go to the academy and all of a sudden starting to like to work out. So our goal, one of our other goals was if we're training with you for nine months and you've got this foundation in this love, and you realize the instructors aren't there to hurt you or to bully you and that we care about you and we care about your, your journey, maybe you'll come back.

And even though it's only been three weeks now, They've come back and that's what we want, you know, it's we want them to come back because they've invested so much time. And even the ones that initially said, you know, I I'm just going to do it because they make you well, now it was our, our chief comes in there and they talk to the  the S the recruits without us present.

And that's the highlight of their day. Like, Hey, we can't wait to get done with curriculum because we wanted to get in there to train. And I mean, that was their crowning moment of the day was getting out of the classroom from doing the, your, your, your, your basic law enforcement training, your, your curriculum to get into gym with us and learn those techniques.

I mean, and, and, and the retention was there. I mean, and it wasn't handout. We didn't get about handed us by master Palo Harris. We had to earn it. And I mean, we would never. We would never disrespect Mr. You know, master Palo, Horace like that by giving belts out under his name. Cause that's our association.

 We love him. We, we, we, we are, we're honored to be under him and  you know, it's the integrity is there, you know, from, from our. No. That's awesome.  You had mentioned  one thing on there, right? So  how do we get police officers to train?  You know, that is, that is the big topic, right? That, that is a big thing that, that we as defensive tactics instructors  is how do we get police officers in there?

 Because sadly  we don't see a lot of police officers that are getting out and training. Have you guys seen at all that your, your recruiting graduated  or even  Deputies in your department are coming into train  on their off time, or they just have a bigger interest to come in and, and make themselves better through this training as a result of.

So that's  actually he was talking, I was thinking about it. One of our main goals that we were first talking about is how do we get, so we, cause we always post training and we've been talking about keep training, keep trying and keep training for years of the academy. But then from a class, like as much as we push it, like I remember one class specifically after they graduated, we had like 15 of them come back for the first couple of classes.

But only one of them is still here and she has stuck with it and earned her blue belt through the Tuesdays and Thursdays trading. But out of the class of 40, 15 of them came back the first couple of times. And then she's the only one that stuck with it and one remains. And  so that was one of our goals.

And, you know, just like  at any other gym, you know, those first couple of stripes on a white. That's that's incentive to come back like, Hey, now I'm actually making progress. I've done something. Those first few stripes on a white belt, even up to blue belt level, you know, Hey, let's give that say, they've worked towards a goal.

They made this goal, or maybe they didn't make the goal. Let's give them that incentive to come back and keep training because the hardest part of going to any jujitsu gyms at first step in the door and the heart coming back after the academy is at first step. Hey, now I'm not a recruiting anymore. I'm going to go back in there.

I don't know what the training is going to be like.  There's been rumors around the department that you go to Tuesday, Thursday class are just gonna try to beat you up.  We all got to go back to work. Nobody's trying to beat anybody up grain, and none of us wants to be  injured. So one of our big goals for that, and one of the reasons we did decide to actually go with a belt and promote them was give them a reason to come back.

Give them a goal to work for and give them a foot in the door to say, Hey, you know, I've done this, I've accomplished this. Let me continue on in this journey and kind of give them that. That's why I know Chad does the pins and you know, some people have questioned the why even do a belt.  But one of our main goals with, with the program and doing the belt was to get them to come back  after the academy.

And I'll  I'll say some of them may be controversial. You can edit this out if you want, but who really cares? About the blue belt, other blue belts, right? I mean, that's, it took me this long to get a blue belt. How can you give it a nine months? I'll tell you. I don't remember how long it took me to get a blue belt.

I know I was a white belt. I know it was a blue belt. I know it was a purple belt, but those years are all kind of melt together for me.  It was about getting a blue bill. It took me four years to get a blue belt. Good.  I don't know, but once you get to a certain level, the blue belt is just the very, it's really just a minor step in that journey.

That just it's a journey. That should be a lifelong progress. I think I made a post about this. We, we set that blue belt up on a pedestal, like that's the ultimate goal. And you've said it, you say it. If blue belt is your goal. Once you get a blue belt, you've quit. You'll quit. You make, you made your goal.

If that's your goal, that's the goal shouldn't be. And even I had a guy telling me he did a private lesson with  with Louise Polaris and Louise asked him, Hey, what's your goal in jujitsu? And he said  well, I want to get a black belt. And Louise took his belt off and said, here, you can have it. Anybody can have a black belt.

It's not the belt that matters. It's the experience you get to get that. So it's like that the goal is to give them that experience. And hopefully now that they have experienced they're comfortable coming back and  continuing that training. Right. That's, that's one of the things, you know, so having been  in a law enforcement trainer for 17 years  both in defensive tactics and firearms and in some other disciplines, you know, when I went through the police academy in 1998, I paid my way to go.

And even though I love the instructors that were here and we have great stories to tell about him, but it was that old school mentality where for lack of a better word. And sometimes I think this word is high, highly overused or bullies, you know what I mean? So it's like, that's what we're fighting this day with our agency, with some of the, the  the more tenured guys that old regime, if you will, is that they are they're experienced in defensive tactics for law enforcement.

Prior to us being in here was. They come in, they get beat up by the instructors. There's no retention there because it's like, okay, I just got to get through this eight hours a day. I mean, me personally, one of the instructors broke my notes and then when I'm on the ground, like, well, that was, that was great.

I'm bleeding. Everybody was like, get off the mat and there was some more choice words involved. Get off this mat and clear and clean it.  You know, but it was a different time. So we fight those old guys that coming back because that's their last experience in a gym. They were beat up by the instructors and they're going home and you'd ask the instructor questions like, oh, you don't understand.

Boom. And they get rocked. It's like, what training value was that? I mean, because let's face it, it's easy to be a tough guy when they can't hit you back. So like any instructor can be tough when the recruits can't hit them back, but we've really. Guarded ourselves against being like that. And, and, and you've got to start it's generational.

Right? So if we can, we're blessed. Yes. We've got a great sheriff with a great chain of command at the training academy, but where we're also, it's, it's a blessing and a curse, like Rob said, we're just short of 1800 police officers. Half of those have left less than five years on, you know, so it's like when you start from the baby policemen.

So if they know that, Hey, for they've been immersed in this training and it's safe, it's. They're not, they're beating you up, they're there to help you.  Now there, that was our, like Rob said, our goal is to make them want to come back. And that's what we're seeing, you know? So we always hear, you know, the millennials, this, the millennials that, and that's what the old guy said, you know, I've got the old curmudgeons and then you've got the millennials and, you know, I think it's nonsense because, and this is what I tell the guys is like, you know, and again, this is just my, my thought on it, but it's like, you know, the millennials are, if I tell you to go get an optic and a gate, You know, I need an optic and a flashlight for your gun and go get a guy to come back and train with us.

You know, that old guy is going to say, well, if the agency wants me to have it, they buy it for me. Now, the new guys, I'm going to tell them that, and they're going to go home and ask their parents for the money and they're going to get it. They're going to get it, but you know what, they're going to use it.

So it's like, what do you want? I don't care how you get the equipment. I want you to come back.  New guys, it's our, it's our rookies. It's our baby patrolmen that are coming back to train with us and loving it. I'm like, so it's, you know, it's  It's been great for us that we are such a young agency, but we are so large as well, which is again, where I think we stand out amongst other agencies that are trying this stuff because it's easy or for an agency of 50, 60, a hundred dollars guys to kind of put a training program out there, but an agency of our size that is, I mean, total with corrections and everything, you know, staff, I mean, we're looking at close to 3000.

You know, just short, you know, short 3000  you know, 2,500, you know, so that's where it's like, it's nice to see that we have so many young officers that understand that we care about them, that we care about the training. They see the instructors training. When I went through the academy, we had one guy  that was a true martial artist and really one of a legend in our community.

But other than that, he was the only one who trained, you know, nobody else trained. Well, they, they. On Mondays, we're doing our training. We stay after class and train, but they're, they're seeing us as instructors coming out with, you know, gassed and fatigued and sweaty and, you know, with rash guards and gays.

And it's like, you know, w w we truly believe in like leading from the front, you know, how can I expect you to go through this training if we don't understand? You know what I mean, as you had BJJ practitioner, how uncomfortable is it for you to be under somebody with side control when you first saw. You know, we've, we've, we tap to it, you know, but, but it's, but they understand that we know, you know, and, and, and we're not there just up to put them through the ringer and, and inflict pain.

It's like, all right, Hey, this is what we feel. Let's fix this. And I think we've had great races and that's yeah, it would have been unheard of for me coming through for my DTS brokers to actually. Spar with a student or role with the students eat well, when we work in, like we work in with them and absolutely that way we can, we can feel what they're doing and see what they're doing.

Gay brought up a good point. As far as your question is bringing people back. We've worked really, really hard on having a different training environment and Gary call by her name stayed at one class. We want the academy to be your home, like come back to it. Like we, we, we maintain our academy full time, like, and I don't know how it was for you, but I know for me, after I graduated the academy, stepping back into this building for in-service like just the smell of the building alone would make me break out in a cold sweat.

Right. Cause it was, it was such torture being here. And we, you know, one of the things I realized, like if I beat you up and punish you with PT, like why would you ever PT after you leave here with PTs? Always punish me. Why would I PT after I leave here? So if I bully you and beat you up in the gym, why would you ever step back in that gym?

And I think we have, you can talk about, you know, making it more hard, being more hardcore or soft or whatever you want to say, but we, I think we have entire generations of police officers. That would never step back foot in the gym because they were bullied through their 80 hour DT program. Or every time they stepped into the gym, it was just a smoke Fest.

Like why, why would I put myself back into that arena? So that's one of the things we've really tried to do is we still there's discipline and you know, there's still order at the academy. But as far as the gym and in the training environment, having, you know, a little bit more open training environment, not picking up, I mean, we still tease  but not bullying and trying to hurt people, but it's  I think that's a huge thing for trying to get officers to come back.

Why would you come back and train if you were beat up and picked on and. Throughout your entire academy process. Absolutely. So one of the things that I was telling my guys when we're training is, you know, I'm not here to teach you that you can get beat up. Right. Everybody knows they can get beat up. I want to teach you that you can survive through that stuff.

And I'm going to train you to get you to there.  And then once I get you trained, we're going to put you in those test scenarios, right? We're going to go through, I think you guys call it your a no quit drill.  Is, is we're going to get you and we're going to put you in those uncomfortable situations and you're going to fight out of those and you're going to survive and you're going to live and you're going to take bad guy or bad guy needs to go.

And you're going to go home to your family at the end of the day.  And I think through doing that at our police academy and where we train, we we've done. Just what you guys are talking about is because we've taken away. Hey, I don't. I go to this academy and all I do is I get beat up. Well, no, you know what?

Now we're training you guys. We're giving you tools, we're making you guys effective and then we're introducing those tough scenarios so that you can build yourself out of Omaha and get to a better spot. There's definitely a time for that. That testing, right. That test testing and that, that building of the toughness or whatever you want to call it, the heart.

 But for us that those are controlled drills that  that we have lesson plans  there's training objectives, like to beat you up just to beat you up. It's not the objective in him. And if I'm just going to lose respect for him or for an event, if there's no training objective in it. So if you're doing this to me and I don't see how there's benefits meet or whether the objective is here, then.

Then I don't have any respect for this.  But if I can see, Hey yeah, this sucks, but I know it's going. And what the purpose is then we'll, we'll put it up with just about anything, if there's a, an end goal and an objective there.  But that's one of the things we've really tried to combat is that, that kind of attitude, if I, if you just hate me the entire time you come to the academy, because I'm just such an a-hole beating you up all the time.

Like, how do you graduate? And then I say, Hey, Equals you can come back and train with me. Like I've been beating you up for nine months and now all of a sudden we're equals and you can come back and train and we'll be, you know, we'll be buddies now. Like it's just, it doesn't work that way.  What would you say to those police officers, to those departments out there that don't have training  or those police officers that are not out there training?

 If you had an opportunity to say whatever it is you could  to encourage them to get back out there and train.  It would terrify me, like I've said it to classes like we had a class to graduate.  Recently that was not part of this program. When I said it,

it would absolutely terrify me

Emily's wellbeing for the safety of the community. Like not having the. The control, the emotional control, the self control, the physical control  when dealing with people on the street would absolutely terrifying. Like I had, I can't imagine doing this job without the training that I have. I just can't imagine it

is ego.  Pro same question to you is, you know, what would you say to those police officers? Those agencies that don't have something out there for the police officers are trained and those police officers are just don't get out.  Yeah. So I, I think  it's, it's, it's accountability on yourself, you know, it's  it's a profession that we chose.

We weren't voluntold, we volunteered for this.  I, and I, and I say this quite often to my guys, you know, that badge that we were on our left chest is, is our protector, but it's also a. And a lot of guys because of ego, like we've mentioned a few times have gotten by there career because they've worn that badge, but it only takes that one time.

 Yeah, you've got to look at that, that accountability mirror and look at yourself. And like Rob said, it took a situation for him to realize that he needed a change in his life.  Because maybe you didn't grow up that way. Like, like Robert didn't, you know, my father is. Has done martial arts, his whole life he's traditional martial artists, but he's, that's, that's kind of the way that we were raised and  there's places out there, but you've got to take it upon yourself.

You know, it's, it's twofold. Yes. I wish every police agency offered something like we do  or had a we've we've done some stuff with   Jaime  down in Aventura. He brought my, and Gary COVID Tony bachelors down to Aventura, Florida, and we talked about our program and we're here to share, you know, it's.

I would love to take our program and take it throughout the United States, because I think it's, it's valid.  And, and we had a great meeting and now Jaime has started in the Aventura police department has started a program to Alliance BJJ and their, and their chief of police is allowing them to do some training.

 I think you always have to look at your program and evaluate.  And, and, and grow from it. And don't think just because it's the way it's, now that it's always the way it has to be. We're police officers. I'm not a Sergeant I've never taken a sergeant's test. I've been blessed to be with some really good units and done some really cool things, but I never had that desire to be a supervisor, but I can tell you this two guys that our officers have made change at a large agency in Florida, you know, and, and it's, it's grown because it's ideas because like, like he said earlier, a bourbon and a cigar around a campfire.

Mike, Hey man, you think we could do this? And we were blessed with a chain of command that we come to them like, Hey, this is what we're going to do. And they say go  you know, we don't come with problems. We come with solutions, we identify solutions and we're not scared to get told. No. And if we get told no, but what do we need to do get, yes.

And then we sit here and we share an office and we work through it. But  but you know, as an officer, go train, quit making excuses on why you can't like, don't get me wrong. I like making extra money. But if you can. Work off duty. You can find time to take an hour and a half out of your day and it doesn't have to be jujitsu.

I wish it would be. Cause I think that's the most valid form of control techniques for law enforcement in my opinion. But if you want to do crime, if you want to do traditional karate and Kempo or TaeKwonDo, go do something because it's still better than nothing.  But it, again, it's, it's, it's really easy to blame the agency for not providing, but you know, Yeah, that was awesome.

You said something.  I actually had a conversation with one my students today.  You know, you said, you know, you guys are two police officers  supervisory role that have made an impact and make a change your department. And I think that's amazing. I had a conversation with one of my   students.

It was actually this morning during our defensive tactics training and they said, well, we don't have anything like this or at our department. And, you know, they kind of do. And I said, just as a, why don't you as a police officer, talk to your training guy and make that change in your department. And their response was, well, I'm just a patrolman.

 And you know, there's proof that a patrolman in a non-supervisory role can, can impact and make a big department and save lives  in doing so. That's the easy way out Lorenzo saying you're just a patrolman. You know, you can be mediocre and get through a 30 year career by being mediocre, but take it upon yourself.

If you identify a problem, go fix it. And that's something that we do in our, like when I'm a liaison and, and Robin I've been leading our co liaison classes.  Yes, there's discipline instilled, but there's also value. Like, let's make a decision. If you see an issue, come to us, let's fix it and quit using, you know, the leader doesn't always wear the crown.

I don't need bars and stars and chevrons to be like  if there's an issue let's, let's fix it. I mean, a lot of great ideas have come from, from Joe's from regular, you know, average guys  that weren't in leadership by title. And that, that cultural change, we really have to come from one of two places, cultural change that comes from the top where it comes from the bottom with people coming in, we were kind of in a lucky place now where we have the leadership at the top that wants to change the culture.

And now. Guys coming in from the bottom that, that want to change the culture and everybody in the middle we got, I mean, we've got guys out there now that are FTOs that are making fun of the recruits for the blue belt. Then we give them a pin. Like it's not, they get a belt, but they also, our sheriff has authorized yeah.

 Paid for them to wear their uniform. And they're teasing these guys about a blue belt pin. Oh, that pin don't help you write reports. No, it doesn't. But when we get in a fight, you can go write the report and I'll take care of it.  If, if the tops on board and the bottom is on board, the middle can, can catch up or, you know, they're going to be left behind, really do want to change the culture of law enforcement and take it from a, this isn't a job that should be a profession.

We have to be professionals. And part of being a professional is continued training. We have to keep up with our training, our training shouldn't into the academy because it's not nearly enough. I'm gonna leave you with one thing.  We train every day at the Jacksonville Sheriff's office police academy from 1130 to 1230.

If you're a police officer and you come to Jacksonville, you're always welcome our gym and it's it's on me. So  bringing your G if you don't have a game, bring your up, bring, bring some PT gear and you're always welcome to fit in.  We'd love to have any  any police officer we've had guys from Brazil come up here and train with us, but you're always.

It's a, it's a, it's a family and we're sincere when we say that, but it's an honor to be on this podcast, guys. I want to say thank you.  You know, as a, as a fellow defensive tactics instructor for, for putting in the time, putting in the effort  in training police officers, I truly believe that this is where.

We save lives  by allowing police officers to multiply that force  that, that they have  you know, when they go out in their everyday job.  And I would just like to end with  reminded police officers to get out there and train  and do things  to make themselves  be better for their community  for their families and for their departments.